On this week’s episode, Scott and I discuss the first Cardinals rotation injuries that occurred in 2 years, and while they occurred at a very difficult time, it might not be as detrimental as some fans might believe. Kyle Leahy is having his innings tapered as the season begins to wind down, and Quinn Mathews is struggling to get deep into games due to command issues. The Cardinals are likely to seek some veteran innings to help finish the season, and we discussed a few available names and one that Cardinals fans are very familiar
with (all hail the Lizard King)! Finally, we finish the show talking about the piece written by Scott on Sunday that explored the idea of extending Masyn Winn, the rationale behind it, and what the contract could look like if we were in charge of the negotiation.
The Cardinals are trying to finish the season strong, and so are we. We are hopeful to be joined by Post Dispatch beat writer Derrick Goold this upcoming week; we also have Rob Cerfolio, Jeff Jones, Bernie Miklasz, Brendan Schaeffer, Josh Jacobs, and Brian Walton as upcoming guests over the coming weeks, so if that lineup excites you more than the Cardinals one that Manager Oli Marmol puts out daily then make sure you’re subscribed and dont miss out on any of the fun!
Spotify:
YouTube:
Transcript:
Jake Wood (00:24)
Welcome into the Viva El Birdos Podcast. My name is Jake Wood, and I write for VivaElBirdos.com. I am the host of the show, and I am joined by fellow writer Scott Plaza. Please be sure to like and subscribe to our channel. We are available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and all of your favorite audio streaming platforms. Scott, how you doing tonight, man?
Scott Plaza (00:45)
Not too bad. It’s the weekend, you know, Sunday night, Sunday scaries are for real. Second full week of school coming up and just, you know, I think I’m just gonna be swimming upstream all year. But hey, it’s accepting it now and just realizing what the year’s gonna be.
Jake Wood (00:59)
Well, as a father, not as a teacher, I am so thrilled for school to be back in session and for these dang kids to get out of my house, let me tell ya. I’m just so thrilled, and also with that I you know, send out some prayers for all of our teachers this year as they have to deal with our wonderful children. So
Scott Plaza (01:17)
See, that’s my summer was spent with my three- and one-year-old, so I was excited to get back to school just to have some free time, actually away from- But now my three-year-old goes to the preschool with me, so it’s super fun to do that. But it’s just being surrounded by different kids who don’t listen to me every day.
Jake Wood (01:34)
You know, that’s the best. My kid also likes to tell us that whenever he gets told no, we’re the worst, and you know, all of that great stuff. So you love to hear it. Every parent can identify with that. But enough about our rambling. This week I I think a lot of the Cardinals’ underbelly- this team was taken advantage of. And I don’t want to use the word exposed because we all came into the season really knowing what those potential flaws already were. So, you know, what the Cardinals organization and we couldn’t account for necessarily was injury. And for the first time in about 18 months, the Cardinals had arm-related injuries to Andre Pallante, whose injury sounds very mild, and he may only miss one start given the upcoming off days; the more pressing and concerning is the injury to Hunter Dobbins, who suffered a forearm strain is almost certainly done for the year. Scott, what did you make of this past week and kind of the injuries on top of everything that kind of occurred?
Scott Plaza (02:41)
Yeah, we’ve been hearing about the innings limits coming up for multiple guys. The phenomenal run of health. I mean, you can’t you don’t expect to have five of your first starters that were in your opening day rotation to be 150-inning guys. You expect something’s gonna be happening throughout the year. The Dobbins one is the biggest bummer because he’s finally up for a consistent run. And coming after Pallante, I thought the way that they went into this weekend, they were leaving a lot of things open. Pallante was the first one that they kind of were like, okay, let’s have an opportunity to get Quinn up here for another one of his extended runs. and then maybe they’re gonna start to run through a six six man rotation especially like you mentioned with those off days coming up to try to only miss a Pellante start or two because like you said it does not sound like it’s super, super something to be worried about. and then with Kyle Leahy, we today we saw him be phenomenal through a whopping sixty through sixty three pitches today. I have no arguments. I I it sucks. It’s a bummer, especially in the year that we’re theoretically in the hunt, like in the NFL graphic, as long as you’re in the hunt. It’s a solid year. And it’s a bummer that that’s just the reality of it. I wish I could see Leahy go even just five innings and keep building on his solid season, but it’s just the reality of the situation that we’re in. And it’s a bummer, and we’re gonna see some new guys that probably we didn’t want to see because I don’t think
Jake Wood (04:10)
Ha ha ha.
Scott Plaza (04:10)
I ’cause I don’t think it’s gonna be the prospects that we wanna see coming up. I think we’re gonna like
we’re
Jake Wood (04:14)
Correct.
Scott Plaza (04:14)
gonna mention it’s gonna be the guys that are just gonna get us through, like the junior cuera cuertos and stuff like that. Sorry, sorry, Juniel, not junior.
Jake Wood (04:20)
Juniel Querecuto, yes. And I think that, you know, I want to touch on the Leahy part really quickly. Like you said, we’re for this. This is smart. And as frustrating as it is, given where the Cardinals kind of are in the quote-unquote hunt, I’m writing an article that’ll come out Tuesday that is kind of detailing and outlining kind of where I think the Cardinals are with everything, right? And just to kind of tease us a little bit, I likened it to going to a concert, but all of us as fans we’re we’re at the concert an hour early, right? We’re watching the stage be built right now. We’re not the show has not started yet. And I think that I, in a way, this season, a lot of the fa like a lot of the unexpected good things happen are very similar to like, you know, you know those videos where, a a person who goes like undercover is like maybe out there dressed as a roadie or a stagehand, but is actually like the lead guitarist, and all of the early people who are kind of there are unsuspecting, and then all of a sudden he like grabs the guitar and starts just shredding on the on on the guitar and everyone’s just blown away like, wow, this was amazing. I didn’t expect all of this before the show even starts, kind of thing. And so I kind of I I put myself and my perspective kind of there. I think we’re witnessing the stage being built. We’re not yet ready for the show to start. And so from that that prism is kind of how I’m taking in this Cardinals team right now. And for whatever happens throughout the rest of the season, I got an unexpected show that I came into this season. If you think back to, you know, when we did our standings predictions before the season started, and I told you I had no problem envisioning this team being a ninety-loss team. And at this point, being sixty-six and sixty-six, being a five-and-a-half-win team, I believe they’re way outpacing what my expectations were this year. Also for those of you who might have put in a little wager on where the Cardinals were their win total was at the beginning of the year- your number is coming up very quickly, so be very optimistic about rightly outguessing what the oddsmakers had put down on the Cardinals. So congratulations on that. You’ll probably hit that at some point this week. to Scott Plaza. to
the go-ahead.
Scott Plaza (06:53)
See, I wanna say that, like, being sixty-six and sixty-six. How this year is going to end with all the injuries and stuff, and like, this holy cow from what could have been a five-game sweep of the Reds to being lucky to win three. Thanks, Dane Myers.
Jake Wood (07:08)
Yeah. Thank you.
Scott Plaza (07:10)
And then getting swept by Philadelphia in another series that, like, you could have won. By the end of the season, the Cardinals are gonna be exactly on pace for where they should have been at the end of this year. Just they’re gonna get there in a way that is just kind of for lack of a better term, a heartbreak because the I don’t know what I don’t think anybody truly believed bought in like to the ten games over for as long as they were, that that’s what it was gonna last the whole year, but it did keep people more involved for longer. So now it’s gonna hurt more as people start to tune out because of the direction this team’s probably gonna finish. And if it’s a seventy-five win team, that means they’re only winning nine games for the rest of the year. So it’s gonna be painful, but by the end of the year, if they’re a seventy-five-win team, that’s probably where Chaim expected they were gonna be at this point anyway.
Jake Wood (07:59)
And for what it’s worth, I believe they only have two series remaining with teams who are above five hundred, the rest of the way, with the Dodgers and the Brewers. Of course it’s the two best teams in the national league, but outside of that, they have an upcoming homestand with the Orioles and the Pirates. They’re gonna play the Rockies and the Giants again. I believe they have another trip to Pittsburgh; I believe it is one of the other locations. That’s this is all me just pulling up off the top of my head. I don’t have this in front of me. but there are a lot of teams left on the Cardinals schedule remaining where the Cardinals can, you know, quote unquote feast off of to kind of prop up that win total going forward. I think a lot of their the harder portions of their schedule were early in the season. But this unfortunately does not give me a ton of hope because it does seem like at certain points in the season the Cardinals will either play up or down to the competition that they face. Whether that’s intentional or not is is like not important. But the fact that they’re gonna be playing a lot of teams who are under 500 who underperform this season. I’m a little weary about kind of will they still have that internal drive and that push to kind of, you know, slaughter and bury the opponent to kind of help prop them up even further and keep them kind of afloat as this thing goes along. But if they’re going to stay afloat, they need arms in the rotation to do so. And that’s kind of where I wanted to get back to the Andre Pellante and Hunter Dobbins of it all. And the fact that Andre is only going miss probably one start, and like or at least have one start skipped during this IL time because there are off days, just kind of the way the schedule works and the Cardinals anticipate that you know, it’s it’s only gonna be a minimum stay, yada yada yada. I think that that is should be looked at as maybe a a bullet dodged. Especially for those of you who out there believe that this Cardinals team is capable of potentially sneaking into that final wild card spot. you know, there that is a a positive on that side. Hunter Dobbins, while it sucks that he the injury occurred to him, I don’t think that Hunter Dobbins this year has been like the difference maker in this rotation, especially since he’s joined it. It’s been four or five and dive. It’s been a lot of deep counts. He you know, it’s been a lot of gutting through and just kind of trying to keep teams in the in the game. And so I I don’t know that that necessarily severely impacts this team’s ability to compete going forward. But I also want to acknowledge that it sucks. I hate it for Hunter Dobbins and that, you know, everyone here at Viva Alberto’s wishes him a speedy recovery and gets back on the mound as soon as possible. Cause we we were very encouraged with what we were able to see from him this season and the arm talent that he has going forward. But Quinn Matthews was called up to pitch in one of those spots. again struggling to get through four or five innings. If if Zach or if if Quinn Matthews is kind of the replacement for Hunter Dobbins. I don’t think that is marginally better or worse in any stance. I think it kind of just remains a lot more of what we’ve seen thus far. he did get a lot of soft co soft and medium contact against him in his start on Saturday. it was very reminiscent of like an Andre Pellante start of 2025 where every single ball that was put in play just found a hole and it was very tough to watch, very aggravating, and he was falling behind a lot of hitters, and so I think that for Quinn to take that next step, his emphasis on getting ahead of hitters and then being able to do what he wants to do and inducing chase around the zone is gonna be very key for him.
And so that’ll be something that I’m watching for him specifically throughout the rest or remainder of the season. Moving on to what the Cardinals may potentially do for some additional innings, as we talked about, Kyle Leahy begins to ramp down on his usage because he only had thrown 88 innings the previous season, and now he is up to 121 innings. So I believe that’s like a 30 to 40% increase if I’m doing my math correctly. Somebody who’s good at math, fact check that for me, please. but you you typically there’s a reason why they’re backing off of Kyle Leahy so significantly is because there have been studies done where pitchers who dramatically increase their their usage year over year tend to be higher more more susceptible to injuries that occur to those pitchers. And so the Cardinals are trying to preserve Kyle Leahy’s health heading into the offseason. So that way in twenty twenty seven, kind of to my metaphor, he’s ready for whenever the Cardinals are ready to kind of, you know, reannounce that they’re here to push for something meaningful and substantial.
Some names that have been kind of thrown out from our friend Jeff Jones of the Belleville News Democrat are speculated on. Mike Michael Lorenzen pitched for the Rockies. He pitched for the Reds a few years ago. Some of you may be familiar with him. pitched for the Phillies, pitched for the Royals; he’s pitched for quite a few different teams as a journeyman. re
Scott Plaza (13:13)
Former two-way guy.
Jake Wood (13:14)
Former two-way pitcher. Yeah, that’s correct. He’s very intriguing. Recently, the Arizona Diamondbacks DFA’d Zach Lattell. He was an arm that was brought in to the Nationals this offseason to kind of fill the same type of role, give them some innings. He’s not overly sub sp spectacular, a veteran back into the start back into the rotation type starter. Again, he’ll give you five, six innings and hopefully allows you to kind of stay in the game; pitches to contact, just like our old friend Miles Mikolas, who was also released recently and may be an option for the Cardinals at this point. I saw earlier today online that STL Sports Central that page had created a graphic that talked about a potential return question mark, and Miles liked it. So that’s always a good sign, of course. So Scott, what are your thoughts on the potential of a return of the lizard king Miles Mikolas to this St. Louis Cardinals rotation?
Scott Plaza (14:18)
Personal thoughts aside, it just goes in the wrong direction or the opposite direction of what this team was supposed to be about. Kind of like the Ramon Urias signing. I was I was for the Ramon Urias Arias signing at the beginning of the year, but there were people that were like, Well that’s gonna take away at bats from the guys that you need to learn about the Saggesse’s of the world, the Bryan Torres who actually, you know, ended up getting a shot, Prieto, happy first hit. But then it goes down to now: if you’re gonna sign, yeah, no. But if you’re gonna sign Miles Mikolas, like, sure, this is where I go back to Dobbins for a second. He was the most major league-ready of the Triple-A starters and probably still was, even with Matthews getting called up, like we’ve seen.
Jake Wood (14:58)
Minus Richard Fitts, who had the lat strain. That that also factors into this here as well.
Scott Plaza (15:01)
Right, which, absolutely, as a proud owner of a Richard Fitts jersey, I miss him so much. But that’s that’s kind of where the Mikolas of it all; there’s no point. Like, that is just literally for all the people that are saying they are not trying to win this year; that would be the first time, I believe, they would actually show they are not trying to win this year. And that’s something that, as a fan base, we know this season is, especially at this point, seeing what’s happened the last couple of weeks, even with the series win streaks. They’d rather play shorthanded, as frustrating as that is, than give a veteran and a veteran of it, who got DFA’d before being so terrible from the Nationals, and nobody picked him up, and Miles Mikolas. That’s just the wrong message, the wrong direction. It’s not even a leadership move at this point because he’s not going to be there. The guys that are there currently are, you know, they might change to the Mikolas situation speculation. It’s good for the clicks and the engagement. It could happen. I would just be really upset if it did, and that’s again just for the baseball side of it. It’s the wrong move for a team to make because that’s just showing we’re just gonna limp to the finish line, and that’s just a hired gun, like an opposite CC Sabbathia where the Brewers just pitched him out there ’cause they were actually trying to win and Mert know they weren’t gonna resign him where this one they’d be like, hey, go ahead and go do this and then we’ll see it we’ll see Pedro Pages pitch again at the end of the game.
Jake Wood (16:31)
Two-way player, Pedro Pages. Am I right? That was electric. Electric. He could play catcher,
Scott Plaza (16:34)
Bring the mercy rule. Bring the mercy rule to baseball. Mercy rule.
Jake Wood (16:38)
He could play second base; he could pitch. He is the unequivocal soul of this roster. No, but getting back to like, the seriousness of it, I think that of the three names that have kind of been, like, you know, again, our friend Jeff Jones had kind of speculated on. I think that Zach Littell is the most intriguing, though I would say that he has to make it through all of the other teams that are currently like below the Cardinals in the standings because it’s a DFA situation, so a claim would be put on him. so like the Cardinals there would be a little bit of luck involved with that, but I’m certain that they would probably put a claim on him for the veteran minimum at this point. It makes little sense not to. And I think that Zach Littell is like the what, what is, how do you say it? Like, if you’re given a choice of bad or worse. You y you just kinda choose the bad option, not the worst option. So, you know, I’m not trying to say that Zach Littell is bad. He’s just, again, kind of like what Scott had mentioned, kind of just filler, right? He he he steps in, he does his job, gives you five, six innings. They may not be the most inspiring, exciting innings. You may not walk away going, Man, I really hope they keep this guy around for the long term, but he can do the job, and the Cardinals can kind of keep it moving.
Scott Plaza (17:58)
See, that’s where I like Littell because he could like he’s he hasn’t have the the profile or whatever, but a a thirty year old guy who could do something that then you could sign for another one year deal, like that is much more beneficial than giving those innings to a Miles Michaelis.
Jake Wood (18:16)
Just, I mean, just last year he was like a trade piece that was a target at the deadline, not for the Cardinals, but the Reds traded for him from the Rays last year in the middle of a playoff push for them. So he’s not that far removed from being like someone who was readily desired.
Scott Plaza (18:34)
Mm-hmm.
Jake Wood (18:35)
And I think that, like, he fits the profile of what the Cardinals kind of have in-house currently. A lot of guys who just throw the kitchen sink at you and kind of see what sticks. I think that very much describes Zack Littell. Maybe the Cardinals get in here and tweak something small with what he’s y doing with his usage, or maybe his arm angle- something small that wouldn’t require a ton of work in season. And maybe they could get just like that two to three percent more out of him than what he was being gotten out of him from either Washington or Arizona this season. From the pitcher injury side of things to the offensive side, Masyn Winn is another player who suffered a minor injury. And, you know, Scott, you wrote about the possibility of extending him. What were your basic outlined thoughts on that? And do you have a figure that you came up with that would make sense if you were in the Cardinals’ shoes?
Scott Plaza (19:33)
Yeah, so I am a known Masyn Winn believer, every year thinking he’s going to continue to improve with the bat as well as be spectacular with the glove. Let me first start off by saying I’m usually against paying defense-first people. Especially when you get into, like, the Dansby Swansons of the world. Yes, he had some solid offensive seasons as well, but then you see him getting two hundred million and the like; well, his defense for a nine-hitter. Like, that’s not what I’m trying to get to. You can always find a Brendan Ryan to fill in somewhere if you need to, at, you know, major league minimum. But what we’ve been seeing with Masyn Winn defensively, especially this past month, has just been spectacular, and it truly has been game-changing. Whether it’s showing off the arm to Justin Turner or making plays on both sides, and then seeing J. J. Weatherholt- like, he just makes everybody better in the infield. It’s the bat; the whole idea that I was going with today is getting him before he gets too expensive, which may never happen. And that’s what I did not clarify, because I don’t like to put that out into the world. I he could never meet the potential that I think he could still reach at some point with the bat, but in the chance that he can, he could price himself out of the Cardinals’ range. And based on their timeline, who knows when that could be. So, as I started coming up with I didn’t like to go into comps because he’s just a little bit different. Being so young. He’ll be a free agent at the age of twenty-seven, I believe is what it ended up or twenty-eight, depending on the qualifying offer a year and stuff like that. The offense has been tough, but not as bad when you look at the underlying stuff as maybe it looks when you see his back foot flailing all the time whenever he sick takes a swing.
So I threw out at the end I said six for one hundred, and that’s just kind of a number that I always tend to start with for an extension because you boil it down and think about, you know, is that gonna be too much at some point? No. I mean, it’s right around the sixteen million or whatever that JJ’s average annual value is as well. And then I want to give a shout-out to CoastieCardinal for responding. Like, is six-one-hundred is that the rate for defense-only shortstops? And that’s where I’m like, I don’t know. Like it is that the rate for defensive-only shortstops? So I looked at Spotrac really quick before this, and I looked at a couple guys that are making a little bit above and a little bit below. So, Ha-Seong Kim makes eleven million dollars a year. Andres Gimenez, fifteen million; Geraldo Perdomo, eleven million. So then I looked back at that a little bit more, and Andres Gimenez has been a below-average offensive player by twenty to thirty percent every year since his extension, and his defense is nowhere near the level of Masyn Winn, and he’s getting paid fifteen million dollars a year. He signed it right around the same time as well. He’s twenty-seven now and currently putting up a two point four war with a seventy eight WRC plus and with less defense. So just throwing that out there, that’s where I’m comfortable with that 16 million. A lot of the people were responding with like 70 to 80, which I’m like, sure, I’ll sign on that. But then at the same time you have to convince the player that it’s worth it.
Jake Wood (22:48)
Correct. Tanks two to Tango.
Scott Plaza (22:49)
Exactly. So, and there was I don’t remember who said it earlier- but it was the Cardinals refused to extend Masyn Winn. And I don’t know if that actually was like the way that it was
Jake Wood (22:58)
It’s not accurate.
Scott Plaza (22:59)
used.
And you just don’t, and I still think Burley and potentially Walker are above Winn in the priority list. But
Jake Wood (23:07)
Correct.
Scott Plaza (23:08)
I said also today that Winn might be the easier to hammer out, to then, which somebody said easier doesn’t win championships, but when you do it for cheaper, then that gives you money to spend elsewhere, as well. So that was kind of my thought process going on with it. I just think he’s been phenomenal. He’s got the fans like him; he’s been able to be a face of the team. We just need the offense to just pop up even five percent more, and I’ll be okay with it.
Jake Wood (23:37)
Yeah, you know, I love the “easier doesn’t win championships thing.” That’s- it’s a fun little line you got there, but
Scott Plaza (23:46)
Yeah.
Jake Wood (23:46)
When it comes to, like, actual business transactions and, like, making decisions and, like, putting together a full roster, it is clear that the Cardinals defense as a whole, which is the primary, like, piece of their identity, takes a gigantic step back when you don’t have your gold glove shortstop installed out there. And so a lot of what the Cardinals are wanting to do, how they are wanting to set their defensive alignment up, it centers around and revolves around, for very obvious reasons, Mason Winn, because he’s at the very center of the diamond. He plays the most premium position; he plays it better than pretty much everybody else in the sport. So when you take all of those things into context and also add in the fact that two years ago, when we were at winter warm-up, and he was asked the direct question and he responded very openly to, like, “yeah, man, I would sign up to, you know, be here long term.” And so there is a willingness from the player; the question remains: how much would his representation and the Cardinals be willing to negotiate on how much it will it cost? It always, always, always comes down to the almighty dollar and how much you’d be willing to spend. And I kind of whenever I I to full disclosure, I haven’t read the piece yet, Scott- but whenever just asking the question, the first thought in my brain was like, Okay, how much, if I was the Cardinals, would I be willing to do? And given that he’s 24 years old right now, I would wanna start it next season, kind of eliminate all of the arbitration stuff, and I would want him for his prime. So I’m thinking about eight years, and eighty-eight to ninety-two million is probably right around the range of what, so that puts him in that eleven to twelve million dollar mix. Again, would the player be open to that? That’s long-term security. That’s generational wealth. That’s taken care of for the rest of his life. Is that enough, though? Does he think that he could get more if he like, you know, holds out, and given what the offensive production has been this year, perhaps, as representation says, you know, that’s a gamble. Is that worth, you know you taking the risk on? Because if you don’t wind up, you know, increasing your offensive output, then you’re probably not going to do better than that in terms of years. And so your overall dollars are probably never gonna match what the Cardinals are offering you. So you have to play that risk-reward for him. But I also think that at twelve million dollars, roughly like that there’s very little risk involved in that. And when you also take into account the calculation that roughly one fWar is worth about ten million dollars in total, the risk on the Cardinal side is very low because he does not have to perform, you know, extravagantly in order for them to get their worth, their value, and their surplus value out of that. And then you also take into consideration that the amount of WAR he generates just for defense alone will probably pay for that and then some. And so you would probably be getting him at a bargain rate, which his representation would probably come back and ask for a little bit more. So there would be some give and take on there. But I think eight at 88 to 92 million is probably a good starting point for him, and I would be kind of curious how they would look to work that out. But I also want to add in the caveat that Chaim Bloom was on KMOX this morning, and one of the topics was about, you know, paying for players long-term and extending them and kind of the upcoming CBA negotiations. And, you know, he kind of mentioned how they have intentionally left things open-ended because of the uncertainty that is upcoming, so that they are ready and flexible to maneuver however possible whenever they know basically what the ground rules are for building and constructing a roster, which is very smart. That a lot of these players, you don’t have to know right away what you’re gonna do with them long term. I think the Cardinals have a lot of really good ideas of who is a part of this moving forward and who isn’t, and so I think that will color a lot of their decisions as they move into the offseason. But for Masyn Winn specifically, I don’t think if they came to an agreement with him it would be something that would prevent them from doing anything else that they wanted to do. Let’s just, you know, blanket statement that all the way across.
Scott Plaza (28:09)
I also put it to the- I don’t remember if I mentioned it or not, but think about him being an eight- or nine-hitter as opposed to a five-, six-, or seven-hitter, which he’s had to be this year. And will that be a bump to the offense? I don’t know, but it should make an eighty WRC+ hurt less, assuming that everybody else progresses, which is quite the assumption to make. But having a ten to fifteen million dollar eight or nine hitter that can play out-of-this-world defense sounds different than an odd out-of-this-world defender hitting five.
Jake Wood (28:43)
Yeah, for sure. I think that this season specifically, you know, they have a saying in hockey, where it’s like they’re playing a line too high right now. And I think that where Masyn Winn has been being slotted in, from, you know, cleanup on opening day all the way to, you know, down to five, six, and that once he gets into that seven-to-eight range, I think that’s more where he belongs, at least at this current juncture of his career. Now that’s assuming that he doesn’t get to kind of the 2020 upside that I think you and I and s and and Gabe all kind of think that he’s capable of. Obviously also leaving open-ended that he hasn’t hit his peak physical prime years of his career, ages twenty-seven to thirty-two. That’s about a player’s peak physical prime. And so leaving that open, that potential there is the potential for a lot more in the tank there from an offensive perspective. But Scott, do you have any final thoughts on the Masyn Winn or anything that, like, occurred over this past week?
Scott Plaza (29:44)
No, the bullpen’s still just a bummer. And that’s the reality of the rebuild. I still don’t know how I feel about holding on to Riley O’Brien, if that was the best move or not. I don’t think in the long term it matters. I don’t know what he would have gotten in return. Like we saw Helsley get Jesus Baez, which has been phenomenal. I don’t know if Riley O’Brien gets that, so then it’s just another lottery ticket, and now we can try it again next year. I guess that’s kind of my last thought there.
Jake Wood (30:11)
I guess I, you know, on that topic, I guess that where I would come from is that I have trust, faith, and belief in Chaim Bloom and his front office group and their ability to get pieces. Like, you’d look back at this, you know, past trade deadline, and they were able to get Alexander Frias and Josiah Ragsdale for two rental-like pitchers for the card. So, like, I trust in this regime’s ability to get good returns for players that they sell. So if they’re out there marketing Riley, if they happen to market Riley O’Brien, I fully trust that they will get a really good return for him. But I also understand that in the context of bringing up Riley O’Brien, he blew up earlier today. It always hurts a little bit more when your closer is the one who gives up the game. I understand that, and I know there’s a lot of feelings and frustrations around that as well. Remember, this guy is at the top of the leaderboard and among, you know, relievers in the National League in saves.
Scott Plaza (31:05)
He was just dominant against the Reds too.
Jake Wood (31:07)
Yeah, it was just recently, so this is just the nature of a reliever being volatile. It’s ups and downs; it happens. You know, everyone just kinda takes a deep breath. They have come home, they have an off day, they’re gonna reset. I think that that’s kind of the last point I wanted to touch on with you, Scott, is like, do you think that this is like one of the most consequential off days the Cardinals have had in some time in terms of like maybe since the All-Star Break and now like leaving out how everything after the All-Star Break went, but like getting to a break to kind of reset, to kind of adjust to where they are now, and getting a chance to kind of get their feet back under them and and get off their feet for a day before they kind of go back against a couple of lesser teams than what you face in the Phillies in the Orioles and the Pirates coming up this homestand.
Scott Plaza (31:58)
Yeah, it comes at a good time, especially ’cause I just hate hearing how, you know, the bullpen’s shorthanded today. It’s like I get it, but how is it always shorthanded? You know, it just and the fact that they keep playing one-run games doesn’t help. But it’s like the Ryan Fernandez of it. Or, you know, the other guys in the bullpen, the Strzelecki’s, like, are they really concerned that somebody else is going to claim them? Or do they just know that there’s nobody else ready, to the point where they really truly need to play shorthanded this season? That’s just kind of my I don’t think it’s bad roster management. I don’t think it’s bad bullpen management. I just think it’s just the fact that they’ve had to play so many close games is th is why we notice it more than we should. But it’s just a constant story of them playing shorthanded, and that’s just it- just bugs me.
Jake Wood (32:48)
Yeah, obviously this bullpen wasn’t built for the interchange and interchangeable process that we’ve seen over the last few years. Clearly they wanted to invest and stick with a lot of under-the-radar guys who were out of options and coming into a season where you didn’t really expect to contend anyway; I think it was perfectly fine from that operating s standpoint. Now obviously, now that, like, all of the season that we’ve seen has occurred and they’re like now it may be a little bit to their detriment. Maybe, maybe wasn’t the best way to handle it, but that’s also giving the benefit of hindsight to that conversation. So I don’t, I wanna make sure I’m fair to them on that aspect as well. I like what we’ve seen out of Peter Strzelecki. I think that he’s got some funk to him. I think he presents a different look than a lot of what you see in the bullpen. When you look at Savant, a lot of his movement profiles are very above average for the arm angle that he throws at, and so the stuff moves in a very positive and intriguing way. So I kind of wonder if he’s one of those under-the-radar guys they hold on to into next season. Now, that being said, if he happens to be somebody that they let go of, I don’t think it’s the end of the world necessarily by any means, but I like, in order to bring someone else up that may be younger, more long-term driven, to say that is, I don’t think it’s the end of the world. But I also think that I he’s he’s shown some capabilities out of the pen. You know, if you think back to that home run by Dane Myers in that game, he was one
pitch away from like one of those performances where we probably still are talking about right now. Like, can you believe that Strzelecki pitched three innings and got them that win and got them that doubleheader sweep, I know the whole conversation about what has happened over this past week changes. I think there were a lot of small marginal moments where the Cardinals fell apart, and it cost them. I don’t think that they were that far off from winning a lot of these games that they had lost. Two of these games in Philadelphia specifically, they were ahead in it at one point. And so it’s kind of hard to say that they were fully out of it outside of Saturday, where, you know, Quinn Mathews unfortunately just kind of got his brain beat in pretty much from the jump. But outside of that, like they were they were in every single game, and so a lot of it came down to one or two moments in the game that didn’t go their way. Like with Matthew Liberatore, he was having a great start, and then he throws that meatball right down the middle to the wrong batter, and it cost him. There are just these and say yeah. That’s
Scott Plaza (35:16)
And sometimes you get away with those. Like, you know it
Jake Wood (35:19)
baseball. It happens. And it’s frustrating, and it’s exhausting, and especially when it’s all a lot of what we experienced in this one week, you know, for as frustrating and as frustrated and exhausted as you may feel, I can only imagine it’s ten times tenfold for those guys that are in that clubhouse right now playing and experiencing it and going through it right now. So I just to be fair to the guys that are on the field, we’re all frustrated with how it’s gone, but I don’t think that it’s the end because there’s still a five hundred T like have a five hundred record as it stands right now, and I think that going into the rest of the six weeks of the season, they have a very favorable matchups against a lot of the teams that they’re facing. I don’t see where the bottom falls out from underneath them going forward unless, like, you know, Michael McGreevy and a couple other of the starters like get injured as well, and then you just have absolutely nothing remaining in your rotation to kind of lean on to get you through the rest of the way. I don’t, unless, like, injury, of course, being the main caveat, I don’t see where the bottom falls out, and they just completely drop out of it.
Scott Plaza (36:30)
Yeah, I think there’s enough depth in the minor leagues that it’s not going to just be painful to watch. I’ll continue to say get rid of the or bring a mercy rule into baseball so we don’t have to see the think the the the lobbying of the pitches. I don’t think we’re gonna have more of that happening. We’ll probably have plenty more two of two for twelve with runners in scoring position and the five through nine spots, you know, being disappointing. But I don’t think there that we’re gonna have a reason to tune out as we might have at the end of twenty three, twenty four.
Jake Wood (37:04)
Dumb question. Instead of pitchers lobbing pitches up there, would you just set a pitching machine out there on the mound and just, like, have all nine field eight nine or nine fielders out there and just have the pitching machine go? If you don’t want to throw, would you rather see that than, like, a position player lobbing, you know, forty-eight into the batter?
Scott Plaza (37:22)
I would probably rather see the pitcher bat than s than see it that way. I mean
Jake Wood (37:27)
I mean, there’s probably a few sick-o’s out there that are just like you who feel the exact same way, so. alright.
Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Viva El Birdos Podcast. Don’t forget to rate and review and hit that subscribe button so you’re notified every Monday morning. For Scott Plaza, my name is Jake Wood, and we will talk to you all next week and bring you more great Cardinals content. Have a great day, St. Louis, and let’s go, Cards!
