The Viva El Birdos Podcast: Episode 83 – Interview with Jeff Jones

This week, Gabe and I were joined by the beat writer for the Belleville News-Democrat, Jeff Jones! You can also find his extended written thoughts at Words About Birds for a very cost-effective price. Now that the Cardinals’ playoff hopes are mathematically exhausted, we start to turn the majority of our focus to the offseason and what might lie ahead. Topics ranging from big picture to player-focused and everything in between were covered this week, plus Jeff unearthed some little-known tidbits

that you’re not going to want to miss!

00:00 Introduction to Viva Elberto’s Podcast
00:12 Meet the Hosts: Jake, Gabe, and Scott
00:23 Introduction to the Season’s End
02:29 Assessing the Cardinals’ Season
08:14 Offseason Strategies and Market Dynamics
11:39 Third Base Dilemma and Internal Options
13:01 Identifying Key Roster Questions
17:03 Catching Situation and Future Prospects
21:14 Masyn Winn’s Long-Term Future
23:19 Evaluating Player Extensions and Future Prospects
26:06 Assessing Bullpen Dynamics and Player Retention
30:27 Exploring the Future of Young Talent
33:10 Analyzing the Impact of Injuries on Player Performance
36:56 Memorable Moments of the Season
38:43 Social Media and Player Perception
40:45 Where to Find More Insights and Coverage

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Transcript:

Jake Wood (00:23)
Welcome to the Viva El Birdos Podcast. My name is Jake Wood and I write for VivaElBirdos.com. I am the host of the show and I am joined by fellow writer Gabe Simonds. Please be sure to like and subscribe to our channel. We are available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and all of your favorite audio streaming platforms. Tonight’s guest has one of the premier seats in the Cardinals vehicle, being one of the few remaining beat reporters that cover the team. He writes for the Belleville News Democrat and you can read his additional coverage at WordsAbout Birds. Please welcome back Jeff Jones.

Jeff Jones (01:14)
Hi guys, how we doin’?

Jake Wood (01:17)
Hi Jeff, thanks for hopping on with us again tonight. You know, the Cardinals closed out their final home stand of the season today, and you know you only have one series left of coverage in Milwaukee, so you let us know before the big black cloud of the offseason descends on the topic of St. Louis baseball.

Jeff Jones (01:35)
Yeah, you know, as we as we we filed out of the clubhouse today, there’s there’s a lobby there that you have to pass through to head into there, and there’s a mark and whiteboard kind of on the wall up there where where the the gentleman who works security in there, you know, is the date, the you know, the game times, all that stuff, and he’ll use like a fun fact of the day or whatever. So, and it’s, you know, next game, next time, all that stuff. So when we walked out of there today, he had changed around the board, and you know, next date, April first or dot dot dot, right? So sort

Jake Wood (02:01)
Yeah.

Jeff Jones (02:01)
Of Sort of an ominous way to walk out of the ballpark this afternoon. Yeah.

Jake Wood (02:06)
Absolutely. You know, I wanna start here. We came into the season with question mark on top of question mark at various spots across the roster. And I think for the first time in maybe three to four years, we’re walking out of the season with more questions answered than questions that persist. You know, how much clarity did the Cardinals gain from this twenty twenty-six season in your estimation?

Jeff Jones (02:29)
Yeah,

I mean this is this was a topic of conversation several times this weekend, right? Just by the nature of being the last homestand and the last time. A lot of folks, I think pretty much everybody except for Derek and Brendan and me, are probably gonna be around Oli at least until the offseason. and and you know, there was a lot of discussion about, is this a successful season? What were the positives? What did you get out of this season? And the thing that Oli Marmol was really consistent and really insistent about was that they feel like they got a lot of answers.

They, you know, not all the answers are yes on all of the guys, right? But they feel like they definitely kind of know what spot they’re in heading into the offseason. I think that, you know, push comes to shove, they would tell you that they know who are who’s starting at eight of the nine positions on opening day next season, right now. I think they would be probably pretty comfortable with that assessment. And that’s not nothing. You know, those are not always going to be all of the right answers. They’re not going to get 100% on all these tests, right? But they feel like they have answers for most of what they needed to know this year.

Gabe (03:26)
One of those things that I guess the Cardinals appear to think they have answered is Nathan Church at center field. And my question to you is, what are they seeing that he will improve upon or get better at? Or I’m assuming they don’t think how he played this year is like his potential because he wasn’t that good, honestly. But did they like, inform you in some way of, like, this is what we see Nathan Church at the future, cause he didn’t really have the top prospect pedigree or the stats really to back up being as confident as they appear to be in him for the center field of the future?

Jeff Jones (04:01)
You know, and so I agree. He definitely didn’t. And that to me has always kind of been an interesting part of the way that we talk about Nathan Church, right? He and Victor Scott are really pretty much the same age. Church is a couple of months older. There’s not much of a gap between them. And you’re right, the church definitely didn’t have the prospect pedigree at all. You know, a guy who climbed from Peoria to the big leagues last year, sort of flown under the radar in a lot of ways, right? But I posed this question hypothetically to a couple of people this weekend, and it kind of interests me. If you took Nathan Church’s exact stat line from this year, that took froze it, took his

Gabe (04:38)
Yeah.

Jeff Jones (04:39)
Name off and put Victor Scott’s name on it; I wonder what the reaction people would have to that season. Right? If they would say that’s not going to be good enough, or if they would say, this is a guy who took a step, and maybe there is development there.

And I don’t- I know that there are differences there, right? Obviously the power profile is different. If you saw a stat line for Vic that’s at 10 home runs and 50 RBI, you’d go, what happened there? Why didn’t he steal any bases? You know, so there are things that don’t quite fit. But I think the big thing with Church is at the end of this year, he is he’s gonna be a two-win player, which is not, you know, it’s not nothing. It is at least some measure of, you know, a guy who can contribute. I do think that saying that they are sure that Nathan Church is gonna is goes into the winner as their center fielder for next year is not the same thing as them saying Nathan Church is the guy who is a center fielder on a championship team. Right. I think that there is a distinction between those two. And I think, you know, if you could get the absolute truth out of the folks who make the decisions, they would tell you that probably a contending team has Nathan Church as its fourth outfielder. I think that is a reasonable way to look at it. But that next year’s team given what they have, what they know is coming, what they know the market looks like, they’re willing to commit to that now because they have a pretty good idea of what might be outside and that they’re not gonna go get it.

Gabe (05:58)
I will say Fangraphs and Baseball-Reference, I think, have a big disagreement over his defense, I guess. Because that was where I was coming from with

Jeff Jones (06:02)
They do. Yeah, they definitely do. Well, and yeah.

Gabe (06:07)
the fangraphs version. I didn’t even know he had two war by baseball reference, honestly.

Jeff Jones (06:11)
Yeah, and and and and so part of that is a little bit of what we talked about with where they can see improvements in him, right? Like the arm is average to below average, but it’s a center field arm, so it’s probably kind of in the meat of the curve of s what of what center field arms look like. And there was a lot of discussion this weekend about basically the things that they feel like they can get church to improve upon are coachable. Right? It’s a lot of things like focus, game awareness, pitch-to-pitch consistency.

All stuff that, like, they did that they don’t feel like he lacks skill for, just that they can coach into him. Right. There was an example that that that that Marvel gave this weekend, and he was talking about the Giants series earlier this week where Church had to play the late-night game and then come right back and play the 1215 first-pitch day game. And his explanation was that he intentionally did that because he wanted to see how Church reacted to the day game. He said he even pulled him aside before the day game and said, This is this is where you show it.

Right, like all this pre-pitch stuff, all the focus stuff that they’ve been working on. He said, Hey, day game after night game, it’s a thousand degrees, go do it. Right. And it probably wasn’t perfect, and it’s not gonna be perfect, but that’s the kind of stuff where they that’s where they see him being less successful than he can be, and they think it’s coachable rather than being just the thing that he won’t ever be able to do.

Jake Wood (07:28)
Obviously, you know, you touched on it there a little bit. The end-of-season press conference has yet to take place, but you know, I’d be curious to know just how Chaim Bloom intends to attack this offseason. Obviously, with the Cardinals being eliminated from postseason contention, a lot of our focus now shifts kind of to what the offseason is going to start looking like. You know, I’d be curious to know, and this’ll be more speculation on your part than anything, and I apologize for that, but you know, do you think he will try to jump the market and act quickly before an industry shutdown, or would he rather sit back and let whatever market kind of occurs develop and be patient and strike where they can extract maybe some unheralded value? You know, kinda how do you see potentially Heim Bloom attacking this off-season as it unfolds?

Jeff Jones (08:14)
So, I act- I mean it it probably is cheating to say both, but I do think the answer is both, right? And I you know, an example of this, the one that I’ve that I’ve been thinking about a lot lately, is the deal that the Cardinals signed Stephen Matz to ahead of the lockout, going from twenty-one into twenty-two, was really pretty reasonable. Like, you knew that there was gonna be some injury risk with Matz, but when he was healthy, he pitched well; you got a reasonable trade return for him. It was four and forty-four, four and forty-eight, something of that nature. Like nothing, nothing really crazy, you know, a below-qualifying offer amount. It’s four years, but a below-qualifying offer amount. And that was in large part because Matz wanted to know where he was going out of the stoppage. He wanted to have security. You know, obviously his injury history put him in a spot where he felt like a multi-year deal was something he wanted, all of that. But which was just to say that the Cardinals, in that case, leveraged that deadline as an ability to maybe drive the AAV down on a guy. Now, the flip side of that, and another one I’ve been thinking about in this context, is I think this probably affects the option decision on Ryan Stanek, right? Because if you assume it’s a $5 million call, it’s a $6 million option or a $1 million buyout. So you’re talking about a $5 million call here. Is it likely that coming out of a stoppage, there’s going to be a whole bunch of one-year relievers who, two weeks before camp starts, are going to be willing to take three and a half or four rather than five? And are those guys going to be 85, 90, 100% as good as Ryan Stanek was this year? I think you could make an argument for that. So I think it probably affects the way that they look at that option and the way that they would attack that market, you know, after a stoppage, because those are going to be the guys. And this is what we’ve talked about, you know, all the economics around this. Whatever happens, it’s gonna be a squeeze on that middle class of player, right? And that’s veteran relievers who sign one-year deals. and I would I would anticipate that that market is going to be a little more- panic is the wrong word, but that market is gonna be easier for a front office to pressure after a stoppage than before it.

Jake Wood (10:14)
Frenetic, maybe? As a word. I don’t-

Jeff Jones (10:17)
Yeah, no, I just, I like it’s not I don’t know, it’s not gonna be thirty guys who are gonna take one and a half to just get into camp anywhere, but it but there are definitely gonna be guys who are gonna be available because I would imagine teams throughout the league are gonna look at it in the same way. Hey, get on the other side of the stoppage. Number one, in that case, you know, you know what the economic system is, right? Because what is sort of the most fungible, replaceable thing on any roster? It’s like the three, four, five guys in the bullpen. You have some system guys you can make, or right, all that stuff.

So there’s really every incentive for that market I to for me at least, there’s every incentive for that market to hold until number one, there is certainty as to what the economic system looks like. And number two, it’s gonna be a shorter window. You know, the reason teams are talking about having a trade, you know, a transaction freeze window is that it pressures guys to take less money ’cause they wanna get a deal done. And that’s gonna be a version of that coming out of the stoppage.

Gabe (11:09)
So speaking of the one position that they don’t have figured out going into next year, third base, do you get an indication that they’re gonna go internal? Cause I don’t think Saggese and Blaze Jordan is that bad of a plan because they’re both unproven; both showed signs that they might do something. Not to mention Jesus Baez and, to some extent, Deniel Ortiz are possibly gonna be a factor in the second half. So do you get any indication if they’re gonna try to sign a free agent or maybe make a trade?

Or are they just gonna stick with their internal options?

Jeff Jones (11:39)
Yeah, so I mean a trade is a possibility, I suppose, if there is. I don’t really know what that piece I act, you know; there are a couple of guys occasionally, like I’ll sort of click around to think about. Like one that makes sense to me, weirdly enough, is Matt Shaw. I mean, that obviously is never gonna happen. There are guys like that right around that that make some sense. But no, I I I think that that is a spot where they would probably look to supplement a veteran free agent. Think of it as a lefty version of Urius, right? Or a combination of him and Gorman as a left-hander, you know, some of a more bench-oriented bit of a guy that you can play at third twice a week or whatever. I I think that I think that Blaze Jordan is probably gonna have every opportunity to win that job in spring. I think that they are gonna be open to seeing what the market looks like. You know, is that a spot where there’s a short-term free agent? Sure, possibly. I do get the sense that with at least Jesus Baez, they are probably going to want him to get some Triple-A time. That’s not going to say that he isn’t going to be in the big leagues at some point next year. You know, I’ve been joking all weekend that, like, I half expect him to lead Lidom in innings at third base. Yeah, I mean, like, he’s going to get a lot of reps at third base this winter for sure. But I, you know, I don’t think that he is probably, as of today, a really strong candidate for, like, the opening day roster in twenty-seven, right? but but yeah, for sure could be a part of that later in the year.

Jake Wood (13:01)
You

know, kind of touching on that topic, what are areas of the big league roster that you think still kind of remain big question marks heading into this? You know, for me, third base was one I think that a number one starter is probably somewhere the Cardinals might would would maybe want to look to add. You know, you look at they have a lot of depth in the rotation, a lot of guys who fill out a rotation, but maybe not somebody who fronts that and then maybe another high leverage reliever to kind of pair with Riley O’Brien to help kind of alleviate some of the tall asks that he’s had of him this season.

I think that what we’re seeing a lot of I know Oli will probably never admit to it- but I think a lot of what we’re seeing with Riley O’Brien, at least down the stretch, is a lot of burnout, ’cause he has been utilized a lot this season and a lot of tight, close games with very thin margins. And so, you know, are those probably the three main areas you think that are still kind of in flux for this team going into the next season?

Jeff Jones (13:58)
Yeah, what I would say is it’s sort of in reverse order. I don’t think that they would probably look to add outside for leverage, like for a true, like closer-esque level leverage reliever, right? I think that you would see a Stanek type, if not Stanek himself into that Yeah, into that, you know.

Jake Wood (14:12)
That’s kind of where I was, yeah, somebody who can help alleviate some of the need on Riley, say if he’s gone three days in a row, somebody you feel comfortable throwing in, something like that, yes.

Jeff Jones (14:20)
Kittridge, Maton, Stanek, that guy. Yeah, that’s always that guy, right? I do think that they view internally if if Riley were to start badly, be hurt, whatever, next year, I think that they are intrigued definitely by what Gastelum would do in that spot. And I think that the success that Graceffo has had with kind of reshaping the breaking ball the second half of the season has their attention. I I I do not think they’re at all interested in putting Graceffo back into a starting spot. Like, I don’t expect to hear that he’s gonna stretch out this winter. I think that they are really happy with the development that he’s done and that he has right now. And I think that they view him more as this is maybe, the guy if O’Brien gets swapped out next year rather than, hey, is this Kyle Leahy? I I I think I think it’s I think it’s more that bullpen orientation.

You know, in terms of the other spots in the roster, yeah, there there will definitely be a need for some version of, you know, some some some version of innings really from the bullpen. Now that is gonna get you to an interesting question about Matthew Libertore that I don’t know the answer to yet, and that I’m not entirely sure that they 100% know the answer to yet. There certainly are people who think What else can they need to see? I I I hear the argument. I don’t know that they are necessarily there yet in determining that with Libertore, but I do think if you start counting up starting spots for next season, you would definitely say, you know, McGreevy, Leahy, Mathews- that’s for sure three. Now you’re talking about if Pallante is on their roster next year, he’s for sure four. I can see an argument, can see a s a situation where maybe Pallante becomes popular on the trade market this winter. But I also thought that the deadline, and it didn’t really happen. So I, you know, I could be misreading that situation. But if Pallante is around, that’s definitely four. And that is before you add anyone from outside.

That is before you say Richard Fitts, that is before you say Cooper Hjerpe, that is before you say, you know, Mason Molina in the second part of this. There’s a lot of guys who can fill up some of those internal spots before you even need to talk about Matthew Libertore. And so I do wonder if, if nothing else, the combination of, you know, places he’s had success versus places he’s not, and what the structure of their roster looks like. I think I wonder if those two things together can inform some of that choice. And then the next, and then the next to me decision becomes is the value they think they can get from him as a reliever greater than what the trade value is? Because if there are say three, four, five other teams who still think they can make the starter thing happen, then he probably has more value in trade than he does even as a really good reliever. I don’t know if they would come to that same conclusion, but that is the way I have sort of thought about it.

Gabe (17:03)
So it seems clear, and you might not know more information than we do, but it seems clear Bernal is the plan at starting catcher next year. What do they do with the rest of the starting catchers? trades move to positions, like like what what do you what do you see the future is for Herrera, who I kind of feel like is done a catcher, but maybe I’m wrong. Crooks, Pages, and then obviously Rodriguez is at least a year later than all these guys.

---

Unedited Beyond this point (I ran out of time I apologize)

Jeff Jones (17:31)
So there are definitely there there are a lot of things there to sort through. I will note, interestingly, that unprompted Rodriguez’s name came out of the manager’s mouth this afternoon as we were kind talking about this spot, right? Like no one said, Hey, is Raniel in this picture? None that came up, but he’s as he’s listening through the guys that the name came out of his mouth, which I thought I thought was worth noting, right, as we’re having this conversation. I I think that they’re gonna go into next year, essentially look at the way

Look at look at Bernal the way that you would have looked at Pahas to start this season. He is the default catcher. He is gonna be the load catcher, and he is gonna be the guy who is gonna get those opportunities most of the time. I think they are by and large happy with the way the Herrera thing went this season. What I what I would say is I know that they are eager to tell us they are happy with the way that the Herrera thing went this season.

Right. There are two ways to read that. Either they are, which I I do think it I think it’s seventy thirty, they are actually happy with the way it went. The throwing, whatever, they they long ago made a decision that whatever they’re losing from the stolen bases, they’re gaining from the bat when it’s in the lineup and they’re just gonna eat it. That that’s I mean it’s it’s as long as we spent talking about can the throwing get better, their decision was we don’t care. The run production is good enough even when the throwing is bad. Right. So

I I think that it went well and he would basically slot into more or less the same role next year. I think that they would be comfortable with that. You know, he is closing in on being the first cardinal with seven hundred plate appearances and twenty homers since like Albert Poohs, who did it maybe once, and then you’re going back to Joe Torrey. Like it’s a weird list of guys who who have that many plate appearances who are that durable at at the plate in over the stretch of a long season. He he did it while catching twenty percent of the time, right? Like that you know, that was

I I think that that worked out pretty well. Now, what that means for Pajas and Crooks, I am less confident about. one thing to keep in mind with Pajes is that he is ARB one this winter. I don’t think that they would prefer to get to a point where that is a place where they just non-tender a guy. I don’t think it’s necessarily totally off the table. My my suspicion is I know that there were teams throughout the season, Pittsburgh was one of them, who called on Pajes when Crooks came up and just wanted to know.

Hey, what’s going on here? Like what like what’s the plan with this guy? What does the situation look like? So it it would not totally shock me if they made some of those calls kind of right after the end of the World Series as they came up on the tender deadline, yada yada, yada. That you’re getting into the question of are are teams gonna do trades if they think you’re gonna non-tender guy. You know, there there’s always stuff

Gabe (20:03)
Yeah.

Jeff Jones (20:04)
that happens in that spot, right? as for crooks, you know, I think that probably at this point, the way he holds the most value for them.

Is this the starter at Memphis next year? And if he pops, if you really need him, if he if he earns it in spring, you know, if you if you get to spring or or whatever, you get to May and Bernal turned into crooks this year, and crooks is having another triple A year, you look, right? There, you know, there’s no harm in that. So I do I do think you can pretty well fit essentially everyone into this picture. Other I I I think there’s a lot of conflict with Pahes and Bernal, and they have chosen Bernal. And that is sort of where it’s gonna work out.

Gabe (20:43)
So you said seventy thirty, seventy them being happy with their se season. Is the thirty that they are doing a public facing we’re happy with it and we want to trade them?

Jeff Jones (20:51)
Yes.

Jake Wood (20:51)
They’re selling. Yeah.

Jeff Jones (20:53)
Correct. That that to me that’s the third. Yeah. The thirty is let’s make sure that other teams know how happy we are with how he caught this year because if another team is trading for him, the su the surplus value is in the catching. Right. The reason to keep him catching is because he is such a better hitter than an average catcher and not that much a better adv hitter than an average DH for spaceman, whatever.

Gabe (21:12)
Yeah.

Makes sense.

Jake Wood (21:14)
So,

you know, you sat down with Mason Wynn just a bit ago and you kind of discussed the future with him and you know, from recent winter warm-ups, every time we asked him about his desire to stay long term, you know, he only had glowing things to say about the organization and w wanting to be in St. Louis long term. Is that still kind of his prevailing sentiment, or have things kind of changed? You know, he obviously

is a a superior defender, but the bat has yet to kind of manifest itself in an impactful, sustainable fashion, and fans seem split on whether they’d be on board with a long-term commitment. You know, is the glove itself worthy of look locking him in long term, or are you of the opinion that the bat needs to show more before the organization would, you know, consider long-term conversations with Mason Wynn?

Jeff Jones (22:02)
You know, th the way that I’ve kind of thought about this all summer is because I’ve had folks ask me, like, hey, do you think it’s a problem for when that Weatherholt got the deal first? Do you th you know, do you think that that is is an issue? And I I’ve always honestly sort of looked at it the opposite way, in that I I don’t think I don’t think under the current situation, Mason wants to be doing an extension because of the way his season has transpired. I think if you’re Mason win

You’d really don’t want to be going into negotiating an extension season off of an ADO PS plus platform season, right? Like that’s not that’s not a spot you want to be in because the Cardinals are going to be able to point to that. They’re going to point to your first year, they’re going to point to your most recent year, and they’re going to say you’ve never been a league average hitter. And you’re not, you know, you you have not or maybe the one, you maybe the twenty-four you was, but it but you know, have not consistently been even a league average hitter. The Gold Glove defense is great, but

right next door we have a guy locked up for the next eight years who has some experience in that position and you know, G dot dot dot. Right. So I just I think that Wynne is not in a good negotiating spot at the moment. and so I can’t really fault him or ca I can’t fault anyone for not being able to get that business done. Because, you know, if you’re the Cardinals, it I don’t think it’s unreasonable for them to say that they are gonna want to see at least over the course of a season or half a season even, right? Like and I, you know, I I I I don’t

I

don’t think it’s I don’t think it’s a good time for either side to get that deal done just because of the way his season went at the plate this year.

Gabe (23:28)
Speaking of extensions actually, when I think Bill DeWitt mentioned the when we signed Weatherhole to his extension, he said something like the first of hopefully a few or something like that.

Jeff Jones (23:38)
Yeah.

Gabe (23:38)
Phrasing.

Jake Wood (23:38)
More to come, yeah.

Gabe (23:40)
yeah, more to come. do you have any intel, I guess, into who they might be working on an extension with at the moment or or soon enough?

Jeff Jones (23:51)
I I don’t. I would be more or less guessing to do that. I I I could take an educated guess, but I think it would be the same thing as everybody else’s educated guess, so I don’t know that it would necessarily, you know, be all that productive. Like of of the guy of the guys you would have the conversation about, to me Burleson is the simplest one. That is the easiest that is the easiest deal to get done. Whether or not that happens, I truly don’t know whether or not it’s been discussed. I I can’t honestly say that I really know one way or another.

That to me is the one that it makes the most sense and that is the easiest to do and that would be a path to bridge that.

Jake Wood (24:26)
Obviously, you know, talking about Alec Burleson, Jordan Walker had a very twenty twenty-four Alec Burleson type season, you know, awesome in the first half, kinda fell off in the second half. You know, what of his long term viability as the Cardinals appear to be flush with, you know, some ascending outfield talent, you know, what could his future look like in St. Louis beyond just this minimum investment as he enters arbitration for the first time in his career this offseason as well?

Jeff Jones (24:52)
You know, I’ll say this about Jordan Walker. My my very strong suspicion is that we’re gonna get to the end of the season press conference and we’re gonna hear a lot about how much Jordan was playing through and kind of how his body was feeling on the second half of the season, right? We’ve already heard a little bit of it’s not going right it’s not going well for him right now. He’s fighting through it, we need to feel him fight through it, he’s frustrated. You know, it’s all the all the stuff you hear about like feel and comfort and such. I if when we get to the end of the season and we hear, hey, Jordan had X, Y, and Z kind of banged up in in in the lower body.

not gonna be shocked, right? The other night where he had that awkward step on first base, rolled the ankle, left a little early, that was the explanation, and okay. I I’m not in a position to doubt their explanations, but I watched him run down the line of that double play and he like he he wasn’t running well before he got to the bag, right? And and that’s look, it’s it’s game one fifty. Guys are gonna be dinged up. He’s he’s playing more baseball this year at a higher level than he’s played ever in his life, had a ton of success. It it’s been a strange year for him. So like

You know, ideally would you like him to finish as strong as he started this season? Yeah, probably. But I gotta say, I don’t really take the last month as an indication that the first four months were fake. I take the last month as an indication that the first four months were real, and that that the cumulative effect of that has has kind of gotten to him a little bit here down the stretch.

Gabe (26:06)
I don’t know if you can remember this out of hand, but do you know which relievers that are in the bullpen right now do you expect the Cardinals to say cyanor cyanara to like

Jeff Jones (26:19)
so let me I mean I we ’cause I was just the other day was sort of running down the rule five stuff and kind of what the forty man looks like and and the and the space that they have. It’s it’s really not that tight this winter. To me, I think there are only three, maybe four guys you would say are like one hundred percent slam dunk put on the forty guys. they they will probably add seven, eight, nine because there are guys you could definitely make the argument for, and they will probably have the space. You know, just when you think about the guys in the bullpen, like the one that I that that I’m not really sure about.

is WinQuest. I would be interested to see if we see him in some scripted higher leverage stuff maybe here over the last week to see if they can, you know, maybe they can try to get a little better of of an eye on kind of what that looks like. I had heard that they had a desire to get Rincone back to the big leagues before the season is over.

he would be eligible to do that the first game in Pittsburgh. So I will see if that happens. I don’t I don’t know that that is happening. I haven’t been told that that is happening, but I know that there was at least some desire to get him back for the end of the season. And so I wonder about that. Right? And and to stay in the organization. I you I I think folks don’t often remember that the Cardinals outrighted Kyle Leahy.

Gabe (27:34)
Mm-hmm.

Jeff Jones (27:34)
four years

ago and he just slipped and then they kept him and you know all this has happened since, right? So wouldn’t totally shock me if guys like that, the guys that we have seen make debuts, pitch a little, not a lot, and and not get a ton of exposure to leverage spots, those are the kind of guys who maybe you would see sort of slip back if they wanted to thin the forty out at the end of the season.

Jake Wood (27:53)
I I’m kinda curious of your perspective with like a George Soriano. So like we’re on the topic of the bullpen. You know, obviously he was he was really, really good through the first four ish months of the season.

got started to get into August, it started to to taper away a little bit, and as we’ve gotten into September, it’s really started to to seem to struggle for him. Again, it’s a guy who’s really overloaded on terms of in terms of innings that he’s, you know, been asked to perform in and appearances for his career. Do you think that there is any type of hesitation

from the Cardinals perspective about carrying him into next season because it appears there’s a lot of fan sentiment at least who have maybe it’s out of frustration, but have made up their mind that George Soriano is not a piece to move forward with, into into future seasons.

Jeff Jones (28:41)
Yeah, I mean I don’t think that they’re married to him, right? Like I don’t think that they necessarily think he’s you know, has a future as like a really important piece of their high leverage. Again, he, you know, wasn’t one of the guys I would think about in terms of internal options to to to replace O’Brien if that became necessary. The thing I’ll say about Soriano and and the way that I’ve kind of come to think about his season, and it’s not it’s not totally fair because he had reasonably significant day league experience before this year, so it’s not a one-to-one comparison. But if you think of like him and Pichard combined as the rule five spot.

Right. Bashard didn’t work out. They let it go, send him back to Miami, Godspeed. Maybe he gets back to the big leagues. They really kind of just treated Soriano like a rule five guy in that same way where they couldn’t move him, they couldn’t do anything with him. So he’s going to pitch through it. He’s going to get some opportunities. And he pitched well into some of them and then pitched out of it. So, you know, if if he’s if he’s the the the seventh or eighth guy in your bullpen, your third or fourth highest leverage righty reliever, I think you can live with that.

and I think for the cost they would be more than happy to have that, especially because they liked enough of what they saw of of of the repertoire, you know, last winter. They claimed him on waivers multiple times and were not the preceding claims, so they didn’t get him and finally just traded for him to to shortcut the waiver line. That that was how much they liked him last winter. I don’t know that they necessarily gave him anything throughout the season to like him a whole lot less than that. so I I do think he factors in for them, but I don’t necessarily think he’s like a building block or anything.

Gabe (30:05)
Sort of a very random player to ask about, but d how do you think the Cardinals view Chase Davis? Do you think they view him as somebody that will eventually figure it out or is he kind of just like, we’re gonna keep him in triple A? Hopefully figures it out. We’ve already kinda he’s not part of our plans, hopefully he forces his way back into our plans. How do you think they view Chase Davis?

Jeff Jones (30:27)
Yeah,

I I you know, he’s obviously relevant to this rule five conversation and this forty man conversation, right? I think the realistic answer is he was a first round pick and so they’re gonna protect him and they’re gonna see if it unlocks. I I think is is probably the honest way that that it that it’s gonna shake out. I don’t think he necessarily like squeezes anybody that they are all that concerned about, right? Again, talking about the shape of the forty man, like Emerson Pereira’s on the forty man, they don’t seem especially interested in what he has to offer necessarily, so

If that is the case, Davis probably is just as useful in that 40 minute spot as Pereira would be, right? Like that, you that that that’s that that to me is a spot they can afford to use and see where it goes from there. You know, like we were talking about with Church, right? Like I don’t think they’re a hundred percent convinced that on their next playoff team, Nathan Church is their starting center fielder. And so if it breaks for Davis, great. And and maybe, you know, maybe he becomes that guy. And if he doesn’t, well, okay. And he’s gonna be a guy who maybe can become Nathan Church as Nathan Church is hitting arbitration.

And if that’s how that works out, that’s probably a useful enough use of that roster spot.

Gabe (31:30)
Is Vic is Victor Scat gone?

Jeff Jones (31:34)
I’m not gonna say gone. I think that

I it it’s really hard for me to see what the path looks like, right? I I just think the way that it is sort of broken out this season. I think the way that the offense wasn’t there. and I think frankly, from the way you’re seeing him used over this last month, right? Like there is there is not a premium place on getting him opportunity right now. He’s on the roster, but he’s I mean, like he he he might not get a start the rest of the way. I we were a little surprised that there were a couple of starts for him this weekend and and some of that was just, you know.

It’s hot, stay after night, all that stuff. So I I think, you know, it’s hard because there are definitely guys who in the in what now maybe you would say is the best peak league version of Victor Scott had really good careers, right? Like the obvious ones are out in Gerard Dyson, guys like that, right? Who who were, you know, eighty percent gloves, center fielders, super fast, hit ninth, played elite defense. You can get away with it if you have other stuff going on in that team. But even those guys, like

Gerard Dyson’s average years were like 80 OPS plus, and Victor’s in that 55 to 60 range, right? And that’s just that’s tough. It’s really hard to be on a roster and hit that little. Like, you know, you like the Ur version of this guy is, I don’t know, Billy Hamilton. And when Billy Hamilton was breaking the 70 floor, he was not in the big leagues anymore. And that was that that that I’m not saying that Victor can’t figure it out or that he is not going to get himself back to a spot where he can find that kind of contact profile.

But he doesn’t have it right now and I don’t know that they have a whole lot of time to let him find it.

Gabe (33:10)
Yeah, I think it’s telling that he’s playing left field when he’s a defensive replacement and not center field, ’cause I think he’s probably a better defender than church.

Jake Wood (33:15)
Centerfield. That was that was a big surprise to me. Yeah.

Jeff Jones (33:18)
Because because the because the reps for church are more valuable for them.

Jake Wood (33:23)
Makes total sense. You know

The one name we haven’t talked about, but I feel like is he’s very polarizing, a very Pandora’s box for fans, it’s Nolan Gorman, right? When we talk about third base being an open place for for competition going into next season, obviously like you alluded to in the in the very beginning, you know, the Cardinals got answers, but sometimes it’s on players and not in a positive way. Do you think that the Cardinals have enough now after, I don’t know, eighteen hundred played appearances, I think, is right around where he’s at, to f to to have some final

Yeah.

Jeff Jones (33:59)
Yeah, I I think when when Marmole talks about we got answers to a lot of questions, they weren’t all good answers, I think he’s talking about Dylan Gorman. I I think that is sort of the way that that’s gonna work out here. And, you know, again, if if the strikeout rate gets down to something reasonable, you know, and and reasonable in this case being thirty one thirty two and not thirty six thirty seven, then maybe you’re having a different conversation. but it just it just hasn’t gotten there. And again, that’s a guy who they are clearly not making time

to get opportunity sport, right? Like for me is playing third base, Torres is getting extra days in left field, and Nolan Gorman is not pitching. So, you know, I I think it’s it’s sort of clear the way that they’re pointed on that one. And again, he’s gonna be going into ARB this winter with enough career homers that the ARB number it might just be at a spot where it doesn’t really work for the Cardinals.

Jake Wood (34:47)
Do you think that’s likely a non tender situation, or do you think that there is any type of marketability in him where they could get a fringe forty man reliever type, just get something in return for him? F

Jeff Jones (34:58)
I think if there was

a lot of trademark, it probably would’ve happened at the deadline. and I think the fact that it didn’t probably says that it that’s hard. That they’re that that whether it’s a value mismatch or whatever, I just don’t know. I don’t know that that matches there. Especially again, like we talked about earlier, if you’re in a spot where if other teams think you’re gonna non tender the guy, they’re not gonna make the deal. They’ll roll the dice

Jake Wood (35:20)
Sure.

Jeff Jones (35:21)
and and and and hope that he’s on the free agent market because for them the value is gonna be marginal.

Gabe (35:27)
So here’s a news related question, recent thing I saw. what surgery did Tink Hens have and how long is he expected to be

Jake Wood (35:35)
Good question.

Gabe (35:36)
out for? Or how long I

Jeff Jones (35:38)
I have no idea.

Gabe (35:38)
should say ’cause it’s obviously we have a whole off season. What’s the timeline on the recovery from the injury?

Jeff Jones (35:44)
I I I have I have absolutely no idea. I don’t know if it’s the shoulder, I don’t know if it’s the elbow. That he’s been off the forty and then he’s been at the complex and then he disappeared for a while and then he was in LA clear like and this is all stuff that that we have like gathered through Instagram. Like this is not like the Cardinals giving us up on this. It’s like okay, Tink’s in Miami today, okay, Tink’s in LA today, his brother lives in LA. and then Kink is walking out of a doctor’s office in Los Angeles with his arm in his leg. Now he’s in LA, so I would guess it was Eltrash, but I I I would be guessing.

that it was L you know. And if it was El Trash, it could have it could be anywhere from the finger all the way to the joint of the shoulder. So I don’t know and it hasn’t really it hasn’t come up. I’m sure it will be asked at the end of season pressure with Haim, you know, here in a in a week or so, but it I I do not know more than Instagram knows.

Jake Wood (36:32)
Jeff, I I I asked our guest last week and I wanted to ask you er was it last week, it was two weeks ago, whenever we had Matt Polly on w when you think back on twenty twenty six, what will be the one moment that stands out y to you the most of everything that has kind of taken place or occurred this season? That you’ll look back five years from now and kind of remember, you know, that that moment happened.

Jeff Jones (36:56)
Joshua

Bias at Wrigley Field. It’s a thousand percent the Joshua Bias game at Wrigley Field. That was that that that I don’t know that I will see anything that cool in in a career covering baseball, right? Like that was just you know, the first the first one it happened and you go, and then you look and it’s like, I didn’t even you know, I didn’t know that Matthew Boyd was related to Joshua Bias. Okay, we learned he could hit a ninety-four mile an hour fastball belled high over the outer half. I bet he can. you know, but then the second one happens and you’re like, you know, and then you know, you’re looking up

When did this last happen? Who’s done it in their first two? It bay, you you’re making the list, you’re doing all that stuff. You’re talking about Keith McDonald, who I I met, by the way, like ten days ago happened to be at Bush Stadium. He’d already he had a pre-existing trip plan. So the cardinals like had him come meet Joshua Baez and take photos and do all this stuff. so you know, the second one happens and you’re doing all that work. And then the third one happens, and I I’ve told this story a couple of times, but like you know, you travel around, you go to press boxes and stuff, and there are people who work in all these places where like

I I know a face, I don’t know what anybody’s name, but like the the the guy who who takes the media meal in Milwaukee, I could draw you a portrait of him. I have no idea what the man’s name is, very nice man, but I could I g I could sketch out what the guy looks like, right? So there are people like this just all over the place in press boxers, and there is a woman who works in the press box at Wrigley who has worked there for as long as I have been going to Wrigley Field, and I’m like I’m literally like standing up just like looking around at the things that are happening.

And I look back and I make eye contact this woman and and and she just go she goes, holy shit. And that like right

and that like that is the moment. That is the memory from that moment that I will take away from that is this woman. I couldn’t tell you her name, but I’ve seen her at Wrigley fifty times and and we we had eye contact and that was and that that is the that is like the stick-out memory of that.

Gabe (38:43)
On a much sillier note, I saw you respond to Justin Turner, who for some reason decided to use chat GPT about Mason Wynn being able to throw it slower on that one play. wha what happened to his brain? I don’t understand why he cares about this.

Jeff Jones (38:58)
And so I So here

is the most important thing I can say about this. Every single time I have ever heard Mason Wynne talk about this, he has been magnanimous and kind. And it says, no, no, they actually he made a good point and people shouldn’t get on it. Like Mason is very particular to be very clear that he does not have a Justin Turner problem, right? Like he is really committed to making sure people know that.

All that being said, like, and I I was joking with him about this today. In fact, and what I told Nathan was, I don’t know how much money I would have to have made in my career to never look at Twitter ever again. But it’s a hell of a lot less than Justin Turner made playing baseball. Like

Gabe (39:41)
Yeah.

Jeff Jones (39:42)
just just don’t. What are you doing? What like people love you. You’re a Dodger you were a Los Angeles Dodgers legend forever. You made a hundred and forty million dollars and you won a World Series and you get to go

guest bartend at Dodger Stadium and get a standing ovation once a week for the rest of your life. Stop tweeting. Don’t go to ChatGPT. There’s no reason that Justin Turner needs to know how to do that. Not important. You know who I guarantee you doesn’t know how to use ChatGPT? Jason Isringhausen. Doesn’t care. Not a part of his life. Like it’s just then doesn’t care. It just Yeah. Right. Can goes to Fastaddies, goes to Jupiter

Jake Wood (40:18)
Knows how to drink a nice cold beer at Fast Eddies, I’ll tell you that.

Jeff Jones (40:25)
Hunt stuff like and I don’t think he made as much money as Justin Turner. Like you know, just don’t do it. Just have a better life.

Jake Wood (40:33)
Absolutely. You know, speaking of the wonderful Twitter machine and all of social media, Jeff, can you please take a brief moment to kinda plug your written work and where fans can go to find all of your great stuff.

Jeff Jones (40:45)
Yeah,

there are stuff still happening in the Belleville News Democrat for now, as far as I’m aware. throughout the winter, what I would say is that you should be checking out Words About Birds, WordsaboutBirds dot com. that is up right now. Monthly subscriptions are live. I also turned on an off season subscription and then realized literally today that the math I had done makes it like you get less for buying the off season subscription the way I have a structure right now. So I’m gonna fix that. we’re gonna get that fixed, and so all of a sudden you’re not paying more than the monthly subscriber. I don’t that that’s not how that’s supposed to work. Look.

The whole point here is that I get to write stuff and don’t have to like do anything else and apparently that includes math. so we’re you know my the business part of it I I’m just trying to write. Right. So we’re just that’s what you know. So that’s there for now. Please check that out. there will be lots of stuff from Milwaukee, from Heim Bloom’s in a season press conference, from whatever happens this winter until things stop happening this winter.

Jake Wood (41:39)
Jeff, you know, we appreciate your time and insight as always. We’ll be looking forward to your coverage all off season long, like you alluded to, and hopefully, you know, you can squeeze us in whenever CBA stuff starts happening. And so someone who is more affluent in baseball economics can layman’s terms a lot of what’s changing for us. We would really appreciate.

Jeff Jones (41:57)
Yeah, you know, I have a strong suspicion then come that come like February, March, April, my only competition for time is gonna be like the Royal Caribbean Casino Loyalty Program. So as long as they don’t have me out in the middle of the the ocean too often, I’ll have a lot of free time probably.

Jake Wood (42:12)
Terrific. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of the Viva Albertos podcast. Don’t forget to rate, review, and hit that subscribe button so you’re notified every Monday morning. For Gabe Simons and Jeff Jones, my name is Jake Wood, and we’ll talk to you all next week and bring you more great Cardinals content. Have a great day, St. Louis, and let’s go cards!